OH MY GOD!!

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Steve

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May 6, 2018
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Today, I'm meeting with a software group who is producing all of the UI software (screen interfaces) for all four of the top high-end exercise equipment manufacturers (Life Fitness, Woodway, etc.) and they also just closed the entire Equinox chain.

It's a total coincidence, but the lead software architect and CEO of this group is a multi-decade very good techie friend of mine. He learned about SQRL before anyone else, and he has been patiently waiting for SQRL to be ready... because ALL of the pro-level systems they create to control their treadmills, ellipticals, climbers, etc. for physical fitness gym purchase (which is all of them) and the entire Equinox chain, will be using SQRL to allow gym members to authenticate to any equipment they are using.

Since I will be giving them (I'm meeting with three execs for dinner) an updated demo of SQRL, I just updated my copy of Jeff's SQRL client for iOS to take it out for a spin.

... and I am STUNNED by its seamless and flawless operation and ease of use. It's going to FLOOR THESE GUYS!! :)

The move to use the password only to unlock the identity and to henceforth trust the device's biometrics for authentication is intoxicating.
 

Frantz

Member
Mar 17, 2019
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Very cool Steve! I need to tell my wife to cancel her Lifetime Fitness membership and join an Equinox gym. :)
 

Steve

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Oh, it was all very informal, at the dinner table in a nice quiet dark Italian restaurant. One of the three (the main CEO) arrived earlier than the other two, so I showed him SQRL's login onto an iPad from my iPhone. Once I explained what had just happened and he understood what it would mean for their use, he asked me what using it would cost them? He was a bit incredulous when I said "Absolutely nothing. The entire system is publicly available, published and free for anyone to use." Later, when everyone was assembled, I opened up a Dell laptop that I had brought and showed logging into grc's /demo site and also here.
 
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Gristle

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Feb 16, 2019
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That's fantastic! Glad to see that some new use cases are emerging. You may have to change the title of your SQRL intro page from "SQRL logs into websites (and gym equipment) for you." ;)

The iOS client is definitely getting there. I haven't seen any updates in a few weeks on TestFlight. I hope Jeff is still alive! Last I checked he still has a ton of work to do. Jeff, if you're listening, please open source your code so the community can contribute!
 

Steve

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I believe that Jeff plans to keep his client closed and also to charge a nominal fee for his client on the iTunes store once it's complete. This has always been the case, and I think it's fine. I would never tolerate ads on such a client, and the returned value will be so great -- and we do need ongoing support -- that I would PREFER to pay something to keep the client free, updated and well supported. I don't expect everyone to work for free, and creating a fully working SQRL client, as Jeff, Daniel, Jaap and I can attest, is not a small bit of work.
 

Gristle

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Feb 16, 2019
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I hope I'm not being too pessimistic, but I fear charging anything more than $0 for a sqrl client (at first) is going to prevent sqrl from gaining widespread adoption. My hunch is that the "killer" platform for sqrl is the phone, and if there is only one iOS client, and that client costs money, I don't see how SQRL will get off the ground. You need a large number of clients to persuade sites to adopt, and sites who do adopt will potentially see increased traffic and increased engagement, satisfaction, etc. But... you won't get a large number of clients if they are basically beta testing a paywalled technology. Once you have a large number of sites who support it, I could see someone spending money for the feature, especially if there are multiple clients, each with feature trade offs, (just like with password managers), but again, sites won't support it if customers don't ask for it. Also, if sites do start supporting it, the likelihood of browsers adopting it increases, which would cut off your app sales anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I personally would be happy to pay $5-10 for a good SQRL client, or donate to a Kickstarter to fund the SW development. I want developers to make money for their work and I would rather have the app be supported and profitable, rather than abandoned or full of ads. I just don't see how you're going to convince the general public to pay >$0 if they can only use it on one or two sites at first.

Maybe this is for a different thread, but there could be a different business model here. Perhaps a free version which only works for the first 5 sites, with an in-app purchase to unlock unlimited sites for $5. I'd totally go for that. This lets you try it out and see the magic and get hooked, and doesn't prevent widespread adoption. Once the momentum starts going and SQRL proliferates, then people will gladly pay to keep using it.

This is similar to what Nintendo did with their online offering for the Switch. They gave it away for free for the first year to get people hooked on it, and now everyone is happy to pony up the subscription to keep the good times going with their already established circles of friends.
 

warwagon

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May 20, 2018
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Iowa
I hope I'm not being too pessimistic, but I fear charging anything more than $0 for a sqrl client (at first) is going to prevent sqrl from gaining widespread adoption. My hunch is that the "killer" platform for sqrl is the phone, and if there is only one iOS client, and that client costs money, I don't see how SQRL will get off the ground.
I 100% agree.

Maybe this is for a different thread, but there could be a different business model here. Perhaps a free version which only works for the first 5 sites, with an in-app purchase to unlock unlimited sites for $5. I'd totally go for that. This lets you try it out and see the magic and get hooked, and doesn't prevent widespread adoption. Once the momentum starts going and SQRL proliferates, then people will gladly pay to keep using it.
Hmm.... I think for this to succeed everything has to be unlimited and free. I realize people want to make money for their time and effort, but as Steve Gibson always says you get one chance to make an impression ... at least I think it was him who said that.

In the early days, all people will see is that the ios SQRL client lets you only store 5 sites then you have to pay and lastpass lets you store an unlimited amount for free. SQRL and lastpass are completely different, that is the distinction I fear they will make.
 
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Dave

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May 19, 2018
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I personally would be happy to pay $5-10.
Sadly, I suspect that puts you in very rare company. I could be completely off base, and would love to see some stats, but my guess is that many people would balk at paying anything more than 99¢ and that something like $2.99 or MAYBE $3.99 is as far as most people are willing to go for any app.

or donate to a Kickstarter to fund the SW development.
Interesting notion. I would. But I wonder how many would.
 

PHolder

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May 19, 2018
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something like $2.99 or MAYBE $3.99 is as far as most people are willing to go for any app
Well LastPass is now charging $3/mo for premium... so I donno... I guess it depends on the perception of the value. I would gladly pay money for a well designed product that meets my needs close to precisely as possible... but I would want to try it out before paying, so I think there needs to be some way to have a trial.
 

warwagon

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May 20, 2018
164
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Iowa
Well LastPass is now charging $3/mo for premium... so I donno... I guess it depends on the perception of the value. I would gladly pay money for a well designed product that meets my needs close to precisely as possible... but I would want to try it out before paying, so I think there needs to be some way to have a trial.
I see where you are coming from with the trial part of it. But if we don't at least have 1 client free on every mobile platform, the launch is not going to go well. We need as little friction as humanly possible on launch. Getting to say 5 sites and then asked to pay, or using the client for X days then asked to pay is too much friction.
 
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Gristle

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Feb 16, 2019
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I agree with everything you guys are saying. Here are a few ideas covering a spectrum of options, from free to expensive:

  1. 100% free. (Might as well open source it)
  2. free with optional $1-10 donation as IAP. Purely to help support the developer.
  3. free with unobtrusive ads
  4. 3 + remove ads for one time fee as IAP
  5. free with optional subscription to support the developer.
  6. free with links to sell physical merchandise to support the developer
  7. free with limitations, which can be unlocked with IAP
  8. 7 with timed trial
  9. 7 with restricted number of sites
  10. 7 with no advances features like multiple identities and exporting
  11. one time purchase $0.99
  12. one time purchase >$0.99
Any others?
I personally think options 1,2,5,6 are the only viable options at launch, otherwise, friction is too high.
Options 7-10 might work, but again, we don't want to impede adoption.
Options 11 and 12 are non starters in my opinion, for the reasons I started above, despite the facts that I would pay $10 for a good SQRL client, but I'm already aware of how awesome SQRL is because I'm using it for free right now thanks to Jeff's beta.

As great as Steve's windows client is, I believe that the dominant market in 2019-2020 will interface into SQRL through the iOS and Android apps. So if these aren't free, SQRL is going to lose this race. If major sites adopt FIDO, and OS vendors adopt it into their designs, then get their users trained on it, I don't see how anyone will be persuaded to abandon it for SQRL, despite SQRL's advantages.

I know my words probably won't persuade anyone, but I urge everyone here to keep SQRL 100% free and to remember that for everyone involved is has never been about money. It's been 5-6 year labor of love. Let's let the world profit from this technology and seek other ways to find reimbursement for the time we've spent making it real so that don't we don't harm SQRL's ability to launch.
 
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PatrickP61

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For me, I would pay .99 -- because I know the value of SQRL, but for the average joe, once they see a fee for a website login feature (never mind the improved security), I fear they will see it as a money grab and not be encouraged to get it.

But more importantly, I think website designers will be discouraged from adopting SQRL simply because they can argue it won't be adopted by the average joe.
Maybe in a few years, developers could charge a fee, after it has gained some traction.
 
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Steve

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Well... Jeff hasn't updated me on his plans for a LONG time. Things may have changed.

It's CERTAINLY the case that while it is just a curio and doesn't actually allow login to any useful websites (only here and other demos), ANY SQRL client's audience would be limited. Someday, though, once SQRL has launched, that would change.

I STRONGLY dislike the idea of artificially imposed limits on an application, and I'm glad that I'm as old as I am when the new "subscription model" for everything has happened, since I can almost afford to withdraw from all of those markets. I just won't do subscriptions.
 
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PHolder

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I just won't do subscriptions
So you're implying that you don't pay for DNS names, or Internet service, or Netflix, or Amazon Prime, or dot dot dot. And also basically saying you reject the whole cloud model of service... wherein people have to supply ongoing revenues to a service provider so they can pay to keep their service online...

I mean, yes, I get your point... I will never pay for MS Office as a subscription, nor would or will I pay for an OS subscription... (MS 365 or whatever)... But an argument can be made that somethings are cheaper that way and thus more people can afford the powerful abilities... such as with Adobe products like Photoshop and Premier. It is out of the reach of people wanting to learn it when it's thousands of dollars to buy a license, but if you can rent one for $25/mo you could at least get a months exposure to know for sure if it was a tool you had to have access to.

I would just prefer there be multiple models... Like Office.... Pay $300 every 3 years... for a perpetual license or pay $100/year or $10 per month... so that there is something about the same cost no matter which way you're able to participate. I also think that if you pay for something for long enough, you should be entitled to a perpetual license of some sort to an older version so that there is still way for you to get off the train.
 
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